Christine (@christineist): Twitter, Journalling, IFS

00:00 — Climbing, community, and a third space

Pranab · 00:00

Hey Christine.

Christine · 00:01

Hey Pranab.

Pranab · 00:02

Welcome to my podcast. So getting into it, you talk about a lot of different things on Twitter. Something you haven't talked much about is climbing. So I was wondering if you could tell me more about climbing, your relationship to it and what you think about it.

Christine · 00:24

Yeah, totally. I think that climbing was like my big community before I stumbled across TPOT. It's really wholesome and I joined when I was a lot younger. So I want to say like 2008 or so. And back then climbing was just like a really niche sport. No one really did it. And I moved around a lot as a kid. So I used to be into gymnastics and skiing, but when we went to Ohio, I didn't really have like a chance to do those as easily as in Colorado. And so I stumbled across a climbing gym.

I literally googled “rock climbing near me”. And there was a climbing gym in this like abandoned warehouse in the middle of Cincinnati. And I like roll up with my mom and it's like this dark, dingy, chalky gym full of like shirtless dudes doing one arm pull ups. But yeah, it's really grown in popularity now. I mean, in the Bay Area, New York, everywhere, there's like tons of climbing gyms. And I really grew up climbing like that was like my home because I moved around a lot. And I found this like consistent community through the climbers.

Yeah, and because it was so small, like the same few hundred people knew each other, even if you move states. So that was a big home for me. But I became injured. And that's why I am now very online. So yeah.

Pranab · 02:07

How would you compare? How is that gap in between climbing and Twitter? What was the injury?

Christine · 02:19

The gap as in like the difference in communities or between communities?

Pranab · 02:24

It sounds like I remember one thing you mentioned me before was once you had your injury, you just couldn't really go anymore. And yeah, what was that like?

Christine · 02:34

Yeah, I mean, it's really sad because the climbing gym is such a solid third space. Let's say you've moved to a new city and you don't really have friends, you can go to the climbing gym. And like, it's not like you have to make plans with anyone, you can just show up and like hang out and like exercise, you know, you can like try these problems. And it's really casual. So you might just like see someone next to you and start a conversation. And that used to be an easy way to make friends and socialize.

But the problem is that oftentimes those friends are ones that you have a specific bond, like it's like a shared activity of rock climbing. And so if you're injured, then you're not going to the climbing gym, you're not seeing them, you're no longer in the third space. And like, it's just like it takes a certain amount of like bonding before you hang out outside of the climbing gym. Whereas with Twitter, even if we're not hanging out in person, there's always like an app on your phone and that it feels similar of just being casually in the same space.

Pranab · 03:48

And how else has that community been? Or I guess that sense of community? How do you compare it? Or does it fit the same niche for you? Or fit the same role in your life?

Christine · 04:01

It's different. It's different. I think that when I look at communities, or even activities, I look for ones that cover multiple bases. Climbing was not only social. For me, the core of climbing was that I love the actual movement and the feeling and the mental process of climbing. I feel very rejuvenated by the actual flow that you get into. I've described it like therapy: you can work through your emotions. It makes me feel really alive. So it brings me that psychological or spiritual aspect to it.

And then also, it's good exercise, like you're moving your body, it gets you out of the house, there's also a social aspect, you make friends, and then there's also like an outdoor aspect. So you get to go on these really cool travels. You go across the world and you get to find yourself in like the middle of nowhere with a bunch of locals. There was that adventurous side too. Yeah.

Pranab · 05:12

You were really into climbing. Yeah.

Christine · 05:20

Yeah. Because I started when it was earlier, it was more of a norm. Of course you go outside. Gym climbing used to be made fun of because it was practice climbing, because you're trying to go outdoors. Everyone's like, well, why would you go in the gym when you can go outdoors? It's so much more beautiful. But yeah, it's definitely more accessible. And now gym climbing has like exploded.

Pranab · 05:49

But it's got its own meme.

Christine · 05:52

Yeah, exactly. I mean, now it's a sport of its own. Like it's in the Olympics, you know, like speed climbing. There's like so much.

Pranab · 06:02

Is it really?

Christine · 06:03

Yeah, it's grown. It's not just training for outdoor climbing. Now it is its own. It's taken on its own culture.

06:16 — Finding friendship through Twitter

Pranab · 06:16

For sure. Yeah. Now going into the internet, how did your relationship with Twitter start? What got you into this very online community? Yeah, go for it.

Christine · 06:37

Yeah. So I was on Twitter briefly, I wanna say like 2016 or so, but it was mostly looking at jokes and I was consuming like just tweets. I wasn't posting. I also was very lightly in like design Twitter because I was becoming a designer. So I was looking around that space, but I definitely wasn't posting. I didn't find my feed that insightful or interesting. I actually got into it through my boyfriend, Brian, who showed me Visa’s ebook and like a few tweets. I thought it was so cool because, one, I was already tweeting before I joined Twitter. I was journaling in my off days from climbing like, oh, like here's my thoughts on this thing. And here are my thoughts on that thing. And they were almost like tweet form. Like they were like short snippets, but I wasn't using Twitter for it. So that was one side of it. I really liked Visa's writing. And then my therapist also got me into Twitter partially because I had tried CBT and it wasn't working at all for me. And she was like, Oh, what if you looked into IFS, internal family systems?

And she walked me through a guided meditation. I was sold. I was like, oh, like this makes sense to me. This feels right. Like I just really took to the idea. And then I saw Visa and Nick Cammarata tweeting back and forth about how they speak to their parts in IFS. And that like really sold me. That was the second part. And the third part was probably Tasshin had a really awesome article on how to use Twitter well, what to do, how to get set up. And so I followed those and also a handful of recommended accounts and between all of that, I really latched on. I was like, I want to talk about IFS.

Like who's out there to talk about IFS with me? Yeah.

Pranab · 08:53

That's why I found your Twitter presence. I was like, Oh, that's cool. Yeah, it's interesting.

Christine · 09:01

Yeah, you were pivotal in my getting on.

Pranab · 09:12

It's kind of weird looking back at that. But it's interesting, because I think there are these like small interactions that actually can lead to like some pretty big stuff. Like, let's say Tasshin never posted the article, or Nick and Visa never had that conversation, there's a real chance you like wouldn't have started using it, you know.

Christine · 09:28

Yeah, especially because I just jumped on and like, very much because I was so excited about IFS, I just started like being like, Who's talking about this? How do I find these people? But you were the first person who was like a real person that talked to me on Twitter was like, Hey, let's video chat. Let's talk about this. Like, you know, like reached out like a friend and I was like, so taken aback. I was like, Whoa. Yeah.

Pranab · 09:59

Yeah. And also just like, I just don't even think about it. I kind of just assume, especially with Twitter, once I’m mutuals with someone, it's like, Oh, I can just probably DM them. Like, definitely fine. Yeah. It's really weird. I think like way back in ninth grade, I read How to Win Friends and Influence People or something. And as much as I don't want to admit it, I'm pretty sure it probably left some deep impression on my psyche. I was an extremely antisocial middle schooler. Oh yeah, I had like zero friends, up until sixth or seventh grade.

And then every year it kind of became just boom, boom, boom. I think in eighth or ninth grade, I read How to Win Friends and Influence People. And the line of “assume rapport” just kind of stuck with me. And I was like, Oh, you can just pretend they're your friends already. And you just lose the—

Christine · 10:56

Yeah, I mean, you made me feel very comfortable, like while doing this. And you were the first person that I had truly interacted with at any real depth. And I was like, you just made it seem really natural. So I was like, okay, yeah, let’s talk. Yeah.

11:15 — How CBT and IFS felt different

Pranab · 11:15

Nice. I'm glad. I'm thrown off. What was I gonna say? We were talking about Twitter. Yeah. Oh yeah. And then also yeah. So IFS. So what was the difference between CBT and IFS for you? Like when you're working with your therapist with CBT, what did that feel like versus how IFS kind of was? Yeah.

Christine · 11:41

CBT felt like homework. It was a lot of homework. And it wasn’t bad. Early on, I had screenshotted a list of prompts from CBT that I actually found helpful. And it just had like all these different ways that you could be framing your thoughts or like different like thinking traps of like, Oh, are you catastrophizing? Or are you thinking of it from a specific context only? And I found that useful. CBT was also, it felt very prescriptive, like, okay, here is this thought you have in your head.

What is the evidence for this thought? What is the counter evidence for this thought? How might you like reframe this thought, you know? I was going through, typing it in. I was very diligent. I went and wrote out all of the evidence, and it was helpful, but it just didn't feel as natural. Whereas IFS feels more emotional. It feels like actual progress, tangible. It feels like something has moved inside of myself, which I don't think I felt with CBT.

With CBT, it was like very top-down. IFS just felt like I accessed it at a depth below that. It just feels different, and it feels better. It just feels like an actual concrete step forward. Instead of previously, I felt like I was just kind of like, oh, coming back and like restructuring and restructuring and like it works, but it just felt like less intuitive. I also really liked the somatic IFS side where it's like more in your body.

Pranab · 13:47

Yeah. Totally. Yeah. I think this idea of like top-down versus shift or movement is a big thing that I think a lot of people in our circles talk about and get, but it's interesting because a lot of people who aren't, who are just kind of new to it, don't really get what that means. I’m curious what your take is on how you describe, describe that or describe it maybe in a different way or what it feels like to someone who just doesn't instantly kind of get it from just like hearing those words.

Christine · 14:17

Yeah. I guess I would describe it as like, let's say you're dancing and top-down would be like, you memorize the choreography and you're like, okay, I'm going to do, I'm going to move my hand this way and then I'm going to twirl and I'm going to do this. Maybe even thinking about the manuscript of the music, like, oh, like at the fourth beat, I'm going to like spot my foot. Whereas the more embodied version would be like, kind of all of that goes out the window and you're just sort of like feeling the music and moving however you feel like, based on like your connection to the emotions, it's like a little hard to describe.

Yeah. Like it's, I guess you move without thinking. Like it is something that is, I think I had, I was like playing around and tweeting recently about like my body having a mind of its own, but like if your body were to just do its own thing and your mind like, you know, was shut off, like that would be how it feels to me to like dance.

Pranab · 15:34

From a bottom-up approach as opposed to like memorizing the moves. Right. Yeah. Right. It's interesting because what that brings to mind for me is like this smooth brain meme. It's like smooth brain mode, you know, or, I think a lot of people also maybe have a fear of like, what not thinking. Yeah.

15:55 — Improvisation and acting before thinking

Christine · 15:55

Oh my God. Okay. This reminds me of, there's a chapter in Impro by Keith Johnstone, where it's like part, I don't know, probably the core aspect of the Impro approach, the improvisational approach is that, you act before you think. So I feel like we're always taught, oh, think before you act, think before you act, because there's all these consequences that can come up if you're, you know, being thoughtless. And Impro is saying that we've gone too far in that direction. And there’s actually a lot of leeway. You can act before you think in a lot more situations and actually have a lot of interesting and magical things come up that you haven't, you know, you've probably canceled them out because you've been taught like, Oh, you can't, like, there's so many like restrictions. But yeah, that's actually, that was actually really helpful for me while reading Impro is like, Oh, like, especially the situations where you're like put on the spot or like, you know, like you're like, Oh, like say something or sing, whatever.

Those more spontaneous moments, the way to do it is to just like move your body, like just like follow, like do anything. And you'll often find that in the act, like there's like a split second of while you're acting that suddenly everything snaps into place and you like actually do something that like it all starts. But if you don't just act without thinking, nothing, nothing happens.

Pranab · 17:31

Yeah. It sounds like that, kind of the middle way or the [unclear meme reference] with the boat and stuff. Yeah. You know what I'm talking about? Yeah. Or kind of the midwit meme, like they're all kind of pointing at the same thing of these two poles, the synthesis, or thesis, antithesis, synthesis. It's like, it's a mix. It's a mix of both. Like all these things kind of point at the same type of vibe, is my whole sense. It's all balance. What about with IFS, do you feel like that meshed well with your journaling or did your journaling change?

Yeah. Did you get more into IFS?

18:20 — One line a day and following curiosity

Christine · 18:20

Yeah. I mean, okay. So it's funny cause I want to say in high school or even like partway through college, I was like, I'm not a journaler. Like I just can't do it. Like I'm not consistent. It's just not for me. But then my friend got me this like one-line-a-day journal. And so all you do is write one line a day in it. And like on each page, it says like June 14th, 2000 and whatever. And then the next year, the next year, the next year. And I was just doing this one-line-a-day journal kind of casually. But suddenly I noticed like I was following the exact same trends every year.

Like I would fall into a certain pit at a certain time of year. I would like start a new relationship at a certain time of year. And I would go through the same thoughts and the same motions. And I was like, repeating myself. And I was like, what is going on? That was one of the starts of me really liking journaling. And then I went traveling for climbing and like, then I had a travel journal cause I wanted to capture the time of my life. And I also got into drawing.

So like I had a long path with journaling. I have like stacks and stacks of journals.

Pranab · 19:41

Yeah. What was the timescale it took for you to kind of see that pattern? Because you mentioned years, it sounds like. Or was it like a few months or what was that like?

Christine · 19:53

Honestly, the first part was slow. I mean, all of the things I'm describing, like climbing I did for like two years before I got really addicted and like journaling probably two years or something. And I was like, I actually had an early thought about this of like how finding your passion or finding things that you want to be like a lifer at like it is really about following your curiosity. And I think a lot of people don't realize that it takes, it can take a long time. And like, so it's very important that you're consistently curious or interested in this like little tiny thing.

Then it keeps you coming back because sometimes it takes a long time. And you don’t even realize it. Like I didn't, I wasn't like, I want to get into journaling and I'm going to journal. You know, I was just like, oh, I have this journal my friend got me, I'll casually like do it. Yeah, exactly. And like, same with climbing. Like I was just looking for like a thing to do. I thought it was kind of cool. I thought the people were a little strange at first, but I was like, Oh, it's interesting.

Like I gotta keep going. I thought it was like a very different context from my high school. And yeah, it's just like, because you're continually curious and you keep going back, suddenly you're like, Whoa, like this has built up. I have two years of journaling down. I can see the themes and then it like really compounds. And so, yeah, it’s kind of interesting.

Pranab · 21:18

Yeah, it's interesting to hear. Yeah, and the fact that it took two years before you got addicted to it or before it became like a thing you wanted to do more often. It's kind of interesting. I share that with, I'm learning Chinese, and the first year of learning Chinese I just didn't really do it much. Yeah. Or it was, it was in my mind for two years. Then I actually started doing it. Yeah. Yeah. And even meditation, like I was kind of loosely into it for like three or four years.

Yeah. It took me, it took a while for it to like really catch and it was only in the last three years that it like, it's become like a giant thing. Yeah. Yeah. And it's going to stick. Go ahead. Yeah. I just, there's like a ton of things like that. Yeah. Yeah.

Christine · 22:08

I feel like there's a while for your curiosity to just be sort of like incubating and then you suddenly like you almost have to not realize it's happening. And then it starts to catch and you have these like increments of progress and then you, and then your awareness shifts in and you're like, Oh, like I made some progress here. And then, by that time you've sort of like probably made some friends or like you've like built up different, like a little system around it. And that's when it really starts to roll. And I guess tying it back to what I was saying earlier about like the communities that cover multiple bases.

I feel like when they do that, you get a really good system going and then you can actually be committed to this activity or community at a deeper level. Like I definitely still consider myself a climber. Like, I think that's like a lifetime hobby or passion of mine. Even though I've been out for like three years.

Pranab · 23:11

Yeah, for sure. Yeah. Interesting. I feel like in some ways, you know, a lot of people, especially post-college talk about how it's really hard to make friends in adult life and it kind of is right. It can be really difficult, but I would say it's like, it's easiest when you can just join a cult and I mean that metaphorically, if you can just find something that feels like it's like a culture or an organization or like a system or a thing that just draws you in and it's weird. Because you're kind of toeing a line.

You want to balance it. You don't want it to like totally consume you. And you want it to be really interesting. You want it to be super fun, exciting. Yeah. More context-agnostic. Yeah. I mean, like people talk about how religion is that for a lot of people. And that's why, yeah. Like return to church.

Christine · 24:03

Yeah. Like church is a great example of a community that covers a bunch of your needs or like different bases from different angles. I think TPOT is interesting. It covers like socializing. It definitely feeds a part of myself that I wasn't getting enough of in the climbing community, which is the more intellectually curious side. Everyone has these ideas. Everyone's creating things or they're writing. They have like the whole like building in public. I mean, Visa has a whole set of norms that I think encourages this. And like that, I think the creation aspect was pretty much consumed by like rock climbing, you know?

And so there's like, that's like a big shift. And I love it. I think it's like really awesome to be surrounded by people who have curiosity and interest.

25:02 — Keeping a record you can return to

Pranab · 25:02

And I feel like you are an integral part of the creating process in the sense like, I feel like every week or two, you do something that's like, it's like not lost in the ether in the sense that you do a good job of catching it and documenting it. You have your thread of your favorite things and thread of threads I think it's smart to do stuff outside of the Twitter format, especially if like, you know, it’s December 2022. If, Twitter goes from 280 characters to 4,000, that might be the death of it.

Christine · 25:40

Yeah. Yeah. Well, a lot of my documented things are links to tweets, but a few of them I have actually transferred to Google Docs.

Pranab · 25:52

Even links to tweets, having them on something that’s easy to send. And I think it’s easier to navigate them like a thread of threads kind of thing.

Christine · 26:04

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I was just like, I began using Twitter very much like for my own curiosity, right? I was like, Oh, I want to talk to people about IFS. And then I came across some like really funny tweets and I was like, this is great. But then I couldn't get back to my own thread. So that's how the Google doc started. I just wanted to like see them all so I can easily bookmark. And I, the Twitter bookmarks feature just doesn't do it for me. So, yeah, the, I'm a big fan of using like Google docs and, I'm like a Google docs and like notes app person.

Yeah.

Pranab · 26:45

Yeah. Which is good. I think, you know, I feel like, I tend to be one of those people caught up in tools. It's like, Oh, how's this PKM versus that PKM. I ended up just not really using much of it. But it’s, it's something I've been learning and leaning into is just do the thing you need to do to solve your problem. And that kind of stuff. Yeah.

Christine · 27:07

I got burned by Evernote. I once had a sprawling second brain of sorts in college on Evernote. And then I think they like changed their subscription plan. And I was like out of Evernote. And it was just that I was just like, I'm not going to put my eggs into a basket like that again.

Pranab · 27:34

Were you into, was it specifically like Building a Second Brain, Tiago Forte’s stuff or was it just kind of your own?

Christine · 27:41

No, it was just like a bunch of stuff that I had collected. Cause you know, I like to collect all kinds of stuff, you know, so it was just, it was just.

27:49 — A life timeline and changing beliefs

Pranab · 27:49

Yeah, I feel like, I feel like you, we both like to collect things. I think I just collect them in my head. So then it comes out in conversation, which is a far less, which has far less utility than having like your actual artifact. Speaking of which, one of the artifacts that you made that I think is really cool is your life timeline. And, going back to the church thing you mentioned, it's like, there's some part of your life timeline. It's just like Google sheet of like, it's like a timeline kind of thing.

It's a really cool thing. I'll probably share a link to it or something in the show notes. But at some point you became atheistic and then recently in like this year it said you became agnostic. So curious how that lands with you.

Christine · 28:37

Yeah, it's interesting. I think I was agnostic. I was raised atheist, but then I was like, no, I'm agnostic. Just because I didn't feel sure about there not being anything, but I went to like a religious, you know, like religiously affiliated university. And I took a few like theology classes and, I think that it was just like, it felt very clear to me that when we die, there's nothing after. We return to dirt and like, I don't know where all this like extra faith and whatnot was coming from. And then I went on a rock-climbing trip.

And I think I was just like so struck by, one of the nights that I was out, I was like, we were climbing at night and the way the universe was almost like spiraling around us. I was like so struck by it that I had, I felt like this first inkling of like, oh, maybe, maybe I'm not so like sure about there not being anything. And I think just it, and this is still, I wouldn't say I have like an extremely strong stance on either of these, but it does feel like I'm moving more back towards like, being agnostic than atheist.

Pranab · 30:24

Yeah. Yeah. Makes sense. And it sounds like that was like kind of a taste of like noetic or the mystical or the transcendental or something like that. Would you describe it that way?

Christine · 30:38

Yeah. Yeah. I feel like there's certain pivotal moments in my life where I feel very struck by certain messages. Like it feels like the muse or like the larger stuff, it's like very present. Like it's extremely viscerally there. And like, those are the moments where I'm just like, oh wow, like maybe there's like, something here there. And like, I also have those, not just with like, a larger presence, but like with certain values, like I have like values that I hold in my life and I'm like, oh, like this feels like a moment where I actually, have crystallized a principle or like a way of living.

And like, I hold that and like generally helps me actually like write it down and feel like I actually, remember this and can come back to it and revisit it and revise it over time and see if I still believe that. But like, it usually does come from like a moment in my life where I'm like, oh, like either struck by like beauty or like some experience happens. And yeah.

31:47 — Revisiting the values you hold

Pranab · 31:47

What are some of your values?

Christine · 31:51

Yeah, there's a lot. I value kindness. I value, so one that came to me was that I value beauty, which I did not growing up, but there is like a moment in my travels where I was so struck by like this, the night, the same moment that I was talking about where I was like, oh, maybe there is something there where, yeah, just like the stars, I was in South Africa, and they really filled me with an appreciation. And I was like, okay, I actually do now hold this in my life.

I value growth, humor. Yeah, I think I have almost like a wall in my head. I have like the stone wall, sometimes it's a basement, but mostly it's like a stone wall of like values. And I have really vivid dreams. I have this thread on like all the wild dreams I have, but, partially in a dream and also just like this imagery of like, just like wall of values. And I will come back occasionally and like hit them and be like, is it still stable? And sometimes they swivel and those are like the one times where I'm like, whoa, like my values have changed.

Like something like the wall looks different now. But typically like one of the stones, I feel like, oh, this is like a really heavy stone. This is like a value that I hold. And like, I will come back and I'll test it. And I think that's important to do. Like, it's funny that you ask because I definitely go through cycles where like, I'll write down like my 10 or 13 values and then I'll like write little sentences, excerpts. And then I come back a few years later because I've had my journals or like just like occasionally we'll flip through my drawings and I'll see it again and I'll be like, oh, do I still value that?

I value altruism. Like I think it's important to be good. There's like, yeah, so like there's like a whole list of those and then I come back and I revisit and I, try to, there was one point where I tried to like measure my life every day against these values, that wasn't sustainable.

34:28 — Imagery and the somatic side of parts work

Pranab · 34:28

It can be a little hard to sustain. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's kind of interesting. One thing that struck me, you are a very visual person. There's a lot of, you have a lot of mental imagery, a lot of dreams, a lot of vivid imagery. Yeah. Even in your tweets and writing, it's a lot of kind of, it's very picturesque. You can, you can imagine it. I am not, in a visual sense. It doesn't really come to me. And I'm kind of curious when you do IFS, you talked a lot about the somatic, parts of it.

Did you, was there a kind of, an order or, a shift in how you do IFS or is it just kind of like developed over time as it relates to kind of imagery versus somatic? I ask because some people seem to be more somatic in their IFS and some people seem to be more, imaginal in their IFS.

Christine · 35:28

Yeah, before I even get into that, I think that the imaginal, like thinking and like relating is actually something that I noticed in myself and actually like developed also. So like you mentioned that you like collecting something like it's like, you notice things about your default mode of operating that it can be hard to notice because it's so like ingrained in you. I didn't realize that I liked collecting certain things or that the way I was like, you know, sometimes you don't even realize, but when you do notice them, if you like sort of develop it or like lean into it, I think that’s when it gets really interesting because, you're like uniquely positioned to do that. But yeah, for IFS it actually began much more, visual.

And then I began to notice the somatic sides and I read somatic IFS and I like really learned more about that aspect of it. I don't think that the somatic side was not there before, but it was immediately visual. Like one of the first things I did with IFS was I drew out a bunch of parts. Like when I first discovered IFS, it was really wild because I met like eight parts, or eight to 50, a ton of parts at once. And I was like, Oh my God, like, this is so like interesting. I couldn't contain how excited I was by this event. I leapt onto Twitter. I was like, what's going on? Yeah.

Pranab · 37:09

And it sounds like so IFS for you seems to be very character driven. Is that right?

Christine · 37:19

Yes.

Pranab · 37:20

Or what is IFS like for you? What does it feel like? And what is it like? Cause I found that I definitely do IFS a bit differently than other people. And it seems like IFS is, I mean, when we say IFS, we're kind of referring to this basket of a bunch of different somatic type stuff that, yeah, I mean, internal family systems is kind of, is kind of the root, but I think everyone kind of adds on their own kind of nuances to it and it makes it their own thing over time.

So kind of curious how is, what's yours look like now?

Christine · 37:55

Yeah, it’s really evolved. And it's also, I love Twitter because, one of my favorite things was like, what are your internal family members like, you know, like are they characters? And if so, what kind of characters? Is there a landscape? Is there like, a feeling? Is there a way they show up? Is it just like these sort of transient, you know, senses, or is it a lot more concrete? And people have like all kinds of answers. All across the board. I think that it's not uncommon for the characters to feel almost a little bit cartoonish or like childish.

I think that the subconscious often is like symbolic. And that's, that's like a thing that can show up. And yeah, it's sometimes I'm like, Oh, I wish that things dealing with like your emotions was more complex or not, not that it's not complex, but like more like intellectually complicated because I'm like, Oh, it all comes down to love or something like that. It just feels like—

Pranab · 39:01

Right? Something cheesy.

Christine · 39:03

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, it's definitely, I have a regular cast for sure. And after the regular cast, I think I have a lot of peripheral like, you know, a lot less, less regular. And especially with the somatic side is really wild to me. I think there's a whole other world that's deeper that I haven't accessed yet. And they do live in these, like my, like what I call like the regular cast, they're very, verbal and their presence is much more like they're closer to my subconscious. So if I were to have like inner conflict or things like that, like it feels like, that's them.

Whereas there's like these underlying cast characters, or parts that I'm just like, I don't have as immediate [a sense of them]. They're not as verbal. They just operate differently. But one feeling that I got from IFS that I really value is that, feeling of trust built up between my parts. So it's almost like, if someone were not familiar with IFS, I'd describe it as like building up familiarity with your modes of existence. So the ways that you show up in your life, in different contexts, in different, emotional states, and just like feeling that you are one, like, able to recognize how you show up in those moments, and know what you need and also feel that you can like trust yourself to be able to like give yourself what you need in those moments. That’s been my experience and it's been really key.

At the same time, I feel like if I were to tell myself that three years ago, I would have no idea what I'm saying.

41:28 — Recurring parts and constellations

Pranab · 41:28

What are those modes of being for you that show up in IFS?

Christine · 41:35

Yeah, I mean, for me, it’s there, there's like so many, like I said, they're like the regulars, right? I have one mode of being that, or like one part, the first part that really came to me was very much like insecurity, which is so cool because I feel like that part has grown so much. I'm just like so proud. But like, yeah, just like, how I appear when I am feeling like insecure. And the somatic part of it that I think also showed up right away, but I didn't even like have words to put to it until I read Somatic IFS was, this feeling of like self-touch in that like I would almost, imagine myself either holding this part, like a cat or something, or like holding their hands.

And like that felt really comforting and just like the feel it's like, it's very much like a self-love exercise. But yeah, that was one, one mode of being, there's another that comes up a lot, which is when I'm feeling like kind of reckless or like just wanting to, maybe feeling kind of nihilistic, just wanting to like say, screw it all. Burn it down. That one, yeah. That one’s fun. I have a fun time, but, yeah, we're on good terms. There's like a lot of, you know, just like building good relationships with yourself.

Pranab · 43:18

Yeah. I think for me, a few recurring, part patterns I have, I sometimes call them constellations because for me it’s not often just one part, but the stuff that comes as a result of it. Constellations.

Christine · 43:40

That's a much nicer way to put it in No Bad Parts, they call them cloves, like garlic cloves.

Pranab · 43:47

Oh, really? That's good.

Christine · 43:50

I like constellations. Well, that's interesting. Yeah.

Pranab · 43:54

I kind of use constellations in two different ways, but at least in this way, with parts, it's like I have like a carb part. But what I mean by that is like I, for a year, I would like I would walk by, I'll walk by a cookie store. There's, there's one, one of my favorite cookie stores in San Francisco is Hot Cookie in the Castro and I'll walk by it. I'll smell the smell of like a really nice cookie. And I'm like, I should go in there and get a cookie. And it's like, and it's like, it's like out of comfort or out of some kind of scarcity thing.

And the story I tell myself is that like when I was a kid, when I was like in like fourth through seventh grade, I would like buy those Pillsbury take-and-bake cookies and make them for my brother and I. And it was really good. Yeah.

Christine · 44:41

I absolutely have a similar part, like a very much like, her name is [unclear part name], but like very like greedy. Yeah. There's a very specific feeling like in my body, it's like kind of like a tight string. And it's like, I need it, you know, and she has like huge arms. So like I said, the first thing I did with IFS, I doodled out a bunch of my parts and oh my God, one part that was extremely wild to me, was that when I drew out my parts, I realized that the same characters, because I've been journaling for years and years and I've been like drawing, they show up over and over throughout my journal entries over the years.

And so it's like, yeah, I was like, what is this?

Pranab · 45:37

And this is before you really got into IFS as a practice.

Christine · 45:41

The way they showed up in my journals. Yeah, that was way before I knew about IFS. Yeah. Yeah.

Pranab · 45:47

But they ended up still recurring. So like the same recurring, symbols or characters.

Christine · 45:53

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So, yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Pranab · 45:58

I think, yeah. Cause I think for me, it's, they often, a lot of times it's situational, so it kind of arises and then tends to go away. But it’s both situational and recurring, like recurring cast kind of thing.

46:19 — Humor, shadow work, and Existential Kink

Christine · 46:19

Yeah. I think that, journaling IFS and Existential Kink, like those three have felt like a really powerful combination, for personal—

Pranab · 46:34

Yeah. What does Existential Kink or EK mean to you? That's, I think the thing that it seems, it seems like you're not most recently, but more recently than IFS kind of gotten into, right?

Christine · 46:48

Yeah, maybe. I mean, I had a bit of a peak in like June, which is like, you know, it's only like six months ago, but I feel like there's been such changes since then. It's a lot. Yeah, I read the book. The book is a little bit goofy. Definitely. Like the cover is like a little bit dramatic, Twilight-ish looking cover. Like some people are turned off. Yeah. Yeah. Some people are turned off by it. I'm like, you know, that's a shame because it's a really powerful idea. It's, it's shadow work. It's very much like, the idea of the things that you really dislike about yourself or the things that you, really struggle with, trying to turn that idea on its head.

So let's say you struggle with, well, for me, I was like, I'm like extremely introverted. And so I struggled a lot with like social anxiety. And so, and I didn't like it. Like it was like, I, you would, if you asked me, do you like being anxious sometimes, like before you go to a party, I was like, no, I don't like it. So Existential Kink is like taking something that you struggle with and flipping it on its head and being like, what if you were kinky or like into this somehow in like a masochistic way.

And so you are enjoying inflicting this kind of like pain on yourself. And so if you imagine it like that, then the way you would say it to yourself in your head is like, Oh God, like, oh no, I'm feeling anxious again. Like, Oh, I hate it. But like, it's like sarcastic now. Like, and by doing this, you're removing the seriousness of it. I think the way that I describe it is like, if before your eyes were like glued to a TV screen, you're watching a horror show and you're like, Oh my God, like, this is so scary.

This is horrifying. Existential Kink, what it allows you to do is like, you can like eat some popcorn or you can get up and go to the—[wording unclear]. And like, it just like removes that like immediacy.

Pranab · 49:17

Yeah. Yeah. I think it's in a way, like some people laugh at horror movies or find them funny and it's kind of a similar kind of thing. For me, it makes things kind of, it's, yeah. And so in some ways I'm sarcastic. In general, it just like makes everything goofy because I think that the thing with, the parts that you don't like about yourself, like are typically, you know, in terms of the shadow and shadows used in a few different ways, but in this sense, it's kind of the simplistic shadow, like the thing that we don't like about ourselves.

Yeah. And for me, it's often, procrastinating again. And it's like, Oh, like I skipped the workout or like, Oh, why, why did, you know what I mean? And it's helpful to get in, it's easy to kind of go from that into a downward spiral of beating yourself up and being angry and resisting and having all the reactionary parts from that. But I feel like EK, or at least like a shadow work approach that is, is kind of similar to this because typically with IFS it’s like, Oh, you know, it's okay. It's like you're gentle, you're nice.

You're kind of soothing. It's very caring and nurturing, a little serious. It's very like kind of somber in some ways, even if it is loving, but with Existential Kink, you're like, You fucking liked that, didn’t you? You enjoyed this.

Christine · 50:31

It's like, what am I getting away with by doing it? It's kind of like not doing it.

Pranab · 50:37

Yeah. Yeah. I get to play games. You know, it's kind of fun, not working out. I like being a lazy slob.

Christine · 50:44

Yeah, exactly. Things about yourself that you don’t like admitting and then it makes it easy to just take away all the reification and pain and just makes it light. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think like going back to my early example, I realized that like, so I moved around a lot as a kid. I was like kind of proud of being the new girl and like being like, okay with either be like, if I got like ostracized or like, if I didn't, if I made it back, you know, like all of that was like a common theme.

And I think I like actually liked it. Like I never wanted to be in, you know, like, I liked being like the outsider. And so I think that like made me realize that.

Pranab · 51:31

Yeah. Or is it something that at some point you were like, Oh, I wish I wasn't or, you know, kind of like that story.

Christine · 51:41

I think the reason why I was like, this is a good area for me to try the Existential Kink stuff on is because it felt like the amount of like anxiety spikes were like way higher because I've like traveled solo across the world. Like I've shown up in a campground in like South Africa, you know, and I've made friends. So like, I obviously have the ability to like be this new person and like make friends and socialize. But for some reason, it was just like such a fear and like anxiety, like gripped my body.

And I was like, what is going on here? And like, I think I liked the roller coaster. Like, I think I liked the like, I'm not gonna make it. And I make it and it's like, Oh, and like, that's like the kinky part, right?

Pranab · 52:26

Yeah. That's interesting. Yeah. Because it's like, it's like, there's a part of you, like initial state, it's like, I'm going to this thing, you're really anxious, nervous, then you realize there's a part that's just like, wait, but I like doing this. Like, I like doing, you know, having both coexist allows it to kind of melt. And the interesting thing is, it's not necessarily going away. You learn to enjoy it. Yeah. It's really a nondual in that sense.

Christine · 53:06

Yeah. IFS is interesting. One concept I really like from IFS is the idea of dimming things. And I do think Existential Kink does that a little bit where like, you're just when you're blended with a part, it's impossible to turn it off, you can't just like, stop feeling that way. But what you can do is ask the part to dim it, like dim the reactions that it's having. And so it feels like Existential Kink, you just are able to make a little bit of distance between yourself and whatever is happening.

And that's all you need really to feel like, oh, I'm fine now.

Pranab · 53:51

Yeah. I find that like, it's that first break in distance from a thing. Because when you're merged inside a feeling or a part, or blended, or whatever you want to call it, it's like you're fused with the mind, you're fused with like that emotional state, you don't even realize that's the frame you're coming from. And you kind of just have to wait until it passes. And I find that a lot of techniques, either explicitly or not, try to get you out of that.

Like CBT tries to get you, like, get out of that while you're in it. It's like, oh, this is, you know, and you're kind of leaning on someone you trust in someone who has this kind of like authority to tell you what's distorted or not. And with IFS, it's about feeling into this self-energy, which can be hard to do, you know, it's not an easy thing. And it can be a little complicated. But at the same time, it's very simple.

54:51 — Feeling held by yourself

Christine · 54:51

It's interesting. It's so wild. Like, you're asking me about like, IFS, Existential Kink, and like, I do feel like I had like a curve with IFS, like, and I'm still I'm still like, ongoing with IFS, but there was like a definite peak. And now I still do parts work, but, I feel like I've come to the end of one cycle, for at least for now. And what I've gotten out of it is this feeling of like being held by myself and like understanding myself, like much more clearly.

I definitely think in the past, I did a lot of journaling, but I felt like I was like, people will be like, Oh, you're so confident, like you're so mysterious. And I'll be like, well, like, I don't really get myself either. And now I'm like, Oh, no, I totally do. Like, I actually have mapped it out. Like I mapped out all of these parts that I've met so far. And like, it's just way more clear. And it's really satisfying. Because not only have I mapped out these parts, I feel that I have a bond to parts of myself. Not only am I familiar with them, but when any of them are like, feeling something like there's like a trigger, and they like pull on that like bus cord, I can reach out immediately, like myself is more present. And I can be like, Oh, like, let me like, hold your hand for a little bit, because you're feeling a little bit like you need more attention. And so in that way, it feels like my self-love is stronger through all these little fibers.

I never would have thought to do that through—I don’t know. The framework wasn't available for me to like do that before.

Pranab · 56:47

Yeah, journaling is an act, but it's honestly a process. It doesn’t have the network—

Christine · 56:54

Yeah, exactly. Like the webbing of it is like really made sense to me. And I was like, Oh, that was like a key. Like I like grabbed it. I was like, Okay, now, now I'm good.

57:05 — What a framework adds to journaling

Pranab · 57:05

In some ways, it's like it's what makes IFS hard to enter and also so helpful is its ontology. And by ontology, I mean, like the way it looks at the world and the way it believes the mind is structured, or at least like the way you can imagine the mind is structured and work with it in a certain sense. Journaling is less it's not very prescriptive, which is the benefit of it, right? And you can do it, you just start writing. With IFS there's a way to do it and a way to look at it.

When you take on that view, that's what actually gets you the juice.

Christine · 57:33

Yeah, I think definitely like the continuity of a part like with journaling, you can like, go and go and go. But like, first of all, you don't actually connect one moment from one in your past. And also, you don't go into these like layers, like there is like a process of, oh, like you're feeling this way. How do you feel towards the way that you're feeling, like kind of removing all the protectors and then getting to like the core, like it's pretty much just a way to get to the core of it, which can be hard if you're just journaling and you aren't like digging deep enough or you're getting like blind, you know, you're getting like swept away by the protector parts.

So for sure.

58:19 — What happens when parts change roles?

Pranab · 58:19

Yeah, and a couple things that stand out to me. Do you feel like parts should always be there? Because I think that's something that some people. Yeah, I remember Tim made a thread on, you know, a part wants to be integrated, which means it's gonna, it feels like it's actually gonna die, you know, and some people, when they say integrated, mean the part goes away and you just have self. Other people take the view that each part should have a different role within the whole ecosystem.

We're thinking it's like the same motivation, but it changes and other people just kind of leave the parts as they are, but just have a more friendly relationship with them. What's your take?

Christine · 58:58

Yeah. So when you read like the IFS books, there are unburdened parts, that is a thing. And typically after you unburden a part, it's much happier and is able to take on things that it wants to do that it wasn't doing before, because it was busy being in pain or protecting the one who's in pain, like all of these things. So there is that concept. I've heard a lot of opinions about like, being only in self and like having fully integrated all the parts and it's just one, it's just one, you know, especially from different people on Twitter, I've heard like, oh, that's actually how it is for them.

I don't think I'm there yet. I really, I really enjoy having unburdened parts. Like I love being on my own, because it's like a great time to hang out with myself and all my parts. And it’s because I’ve worked with a lot of them to unburden them. It just feels like, it feels like nice. I don't know. I don't think for me, it doesn't feel like one block, it feels maybe more like an orchestra or like a symphony. Like there's a lot, but they all like work together. It's like a harmonized symphony.

01:00:36 — Oneness and an orchestra of parts

Pranab · 01:00:36

And even from a meditative point of view, I think there is a view of meditation that like everything becomes one or it's all oneness and whatever. And I think that's interesting and cool. And in a sense, also a bit, not necessarily naive, but not necessarily maybe not fully developed. And what I mean by that is, it's good to have kind of that sense of oneness, while also having a sense of divisiveness, like at the same time. And I think that's a way to represent one ideal of IFS. It's like you have self and you have this orchestra and everything's harmonized and you have a good harmony, but it's still separate.

You know?

Christine · 01:01:17

Yeah, that's definitely how it feels to me.

Pranab · 01:01:21

Yeah, exactly. Versus like a prior state. And part of where we're coming from is like, it's good to enjoy every part of the journey. Like we said, right, maybe at some point it might change for you, but it's really nice to be able to enjoy where it's at and really kind of sit with that well right now. And even before, and I think the point of EK and IFS, all this stuff is even when you have moments of fighting and dissonance and polarization where you have a part that’s hated by another part, and all these layers, being able to like, you could even enjoy that in a sense, even a little bit, like 1%.

And then once you actually kind of work with it and soften it and melt it, you can enjoy it like 7% or 23%. And it gets a little easier to work with and it becomes this more kind of self-trusting ecosystem type thing.

Christine · 01:02:09

Exactly, exactly. Yeah, it feels very much, I would say that my current inner state feels very much like an orchestra or symphony that learned to harmonize. And it's just like, oh, like all the parts are there, but it's like really nice. And they haven't yet gotten to a point where they're all playing like the same note. And suddenly it feels like one note, but it's like, they're in harmony and it feels like all that they've all like clicked into place. It's like a good place to be.

01:02:38 — The end of a phase and what comes next

Pranab · 01:02:38

For sure. Do you find that this is, and you mentioned that this phase is over. And what was kind of the beginning? Like, is it over because you've had that sense of harmony? Is that what feels, is that the kind of finality to it in some sense?

Christine · 01:02:52

It's over in the sense that there is a period where I was just encountering parts left and right. Like they were just like, whoa, here's another one. Here's another one. And now they haven't in a while, or like even the ones that have don't feel like main characters, like they feel less formed. So I feel like my next phase is probably getting to that deeper layer and getting to know maybe less verbal parts. Yeah, I do think that the initial phase, it feels very like I've gotten what I feel like is a kernel of self-love, inner harmony, self-trust.

The way I talk to myself when I see myself in the mirror or like when I fail is like much nicer than it was before. I don't know. It just feels like, oh, I made like a tangible amount of something. It does feel like there's some kind of ending of a wave. So yeah.

Pranab · 01:04:06

And does it feel, so in a sense it's the end of a wave, but not necessarily the end of the whole process.

Christine · 01:04:12

No, no. I mean the concept, there's no end to a concept, right? I think it has been so transformative for the way I think about myself that I'm just like, oh, like this is, it's so catchy. I don't know. I feel like even if you like bring it up to someone and you're like, oh, like, so the mind is multiple and just let that form in their heads. Like it's already taken shape. So I don't think that I'm going to just move on.

I feel like it is possible to achieve some sort of, in some state where you're fully happy and like you no longer have to work on yourself, but I don’t know. I’m sure I will have more obstacles in my future.

Pranab · 01:05:13

Yeah. How I view that, it's an equilibrium or it's like a meta-state where it's like, there'll always be waves, sometimes really big waves, sometimes really intense storms and you're kind of floating along the wave. But IFS kind of gives you like a bigger boat or it makes it like a kind of like a more sturdy ship, which doesn't mean that the ship's not going to rock. It hopefully just means that you're able to like work with stuff and you know, kind of re-stabilize a little bit faster, a little bit gentler, a little bit easier.

Christine · 01:05:50

Yeah, definitely. I think like I'm also able to access different emotions more than I used to. Like there's like doors that have been open where I'm just like, whoa, I have never gone there inside, like to that degree of emotion or something. And like now it's like open and I'm just like, it does feel like, oh, I've passed the first wave now. Let's see what happens next.

01:06:22 — Questions about a multiple mind

Pranab · 01:06:22

Yeah. I think that, so this is kind of a bit of a change, but there's also, when you tell someone the mind is multiple or made of different parts, one thing I've seen go viral on Twitter is DID, like dissociative identity disorder, which I think previously was called multiple personality disorder. Yeah. And what are your thoughts on the differences between the two? Yeah. One is typically thought of as maladaptive or, I mean, in kind of in a more stigmatized way, it's like, oh, that's crazy. Like that's a crazy person, whatever, right? I think we can see that it's just kind of a thing that can happen.

But yeah, how do you view that as different than IFS or similar?

Christine · 01:07:06

Yeah, totally. I think like if, if anyone starts being like, I have like, if you're like, oh, I have all these voices in my head, then people start to think you're crazy, right? I think it’s a spectrum. And I think that's how Richard Schwartz talks about it too, is that he actually views that as like extreme cases of IFS. And that like, if you think about it, we all talk about inner conflict, like the whole angel on one shoulder and the devil on the other is like a common like trope. And we don't think that they're crazy.

It's just like a visualization of inner conflict. And like, we are capable of all kinds of emotions. And for me, in my mind, it's very much like a spectrum of how far it can go.

Pranab · 01:07:57

Yeah, for sure. Yeah, I feel like that's that probably deserves its own like whole topic and conversation. I think once you get into this, once you open up IFS, for better or worse, it kind of opens up a lot of questions around like, multiple personalities and like, yeah, tulpas, and also kind of like entities, angels and demons, all this really interesting stuff that seems like crazy out there, but could be modeled within an IFS frame. And, you know, are they inside or outside?

All this stuff. I feel like we're at a pretty good stopping point. So, closing thoughts. Do you have anything else you got in mind?

01:08:36 — Closing the first episode

Christine · 01:08:36

No, I really enjoyed this. I think it's like really cool to get to talk to people. Like, you know, you were a big part of me getting on Twitter, and it feels like everyone's having these conversations. And it's cool to be able to like, talk about it and share it and go like a little deeper into it. So yeah, thanks for having me. It was good to chat.

Pranab · 01:08:58

Thanks for joining. Good podcast one. Good experiment. Yeah, we'll do another one when I'm better because it's probably the worst. All right.